Ash: Hey, hey, hey. Welcome back to Live Bold and Boss Up. It is your girls, Steph and Ash. Today we chat with Nate Klemp. He is a fantastic author writer. He just wrote the book “Open”. We have it here in our hands. It’s not even out yet. It’s coming out February. This is his fourth book he’s written. And can we just tell you this is the perfect podcast episode for right in the beginning of the New Year, New Year, new You? This book is so on point with what everyone has going on right now. It talks about. Social media addiction, right? Like how we just pick up the phone and go through our social and have that desire to go on but he. He puts like words to why we do that and then really like dissects it and then not only that, but he really shares with you how you. Can fix that and turn it. Around and tools.
Steph: To get better, right? He really speaks to you as I was reading the book, I felt like he was sitting there talking to me. He just explained it in such a good way, and I could relate to every single thing he was talking. About so, I mean, I was already just, you know, relating to it and applying it. Right. Right. I can’t wait to finish it. We just started. I wanted to finish it, but.
Ash: Or but just, you know, right, I probably was on social media too much and I didn’t. I didn’t do that. So, a little bit about me guys, he had spent years studying philosophy at Stanford. He got his PhD at Princeton. He was a professor for a number of years. Obviously, he’s a philosopher, a writer. He’s a mindfulness entrepreneur. He co-authored a couple other books that are New York Times bestsellers, including “Start Here” and “The 80/80 Marriage”, which I feel like I want to read after this. This I just love the way he writes and how it reads is so easy and.
Steph: And he raised that one with his wife, which it would be nice to get both of their perspectives.
Ash: Yeah, that’s a really. Good point. Because you’re not just getting the male version or the female version, you’re getting both, which is kind of that’s the whole point, yeah.
Steph: Right.
Ash: His all of his works has been featured in the LA Times, Psychology Today, Thrive Global. He’s also had appearances on Good Morning America talks at Google. He’s also the founding partner of Mindful, which is one of the far the four most mindful training companies. I just love that because he really dives into this work and really. Articulates what the issues are and then has, like I said, real tools to help you or boss bites as we call them to help you move from that and grow. He’s great, I know. Perfect New Year, New You, podcast episode. Check it out. Thank you so much for. Being on our podcast and sending us these books and these awesome hats, these are so cool. Everyone in the office wants them and you know, so I didn’t finish the book yet. We started. I know stuff started to and.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Of course, yeah.
Ash: Wow, that it’s a lot to unpack and uncover because, but I think it’s important to to think about this because we’re all super addicted to. Like maybe instant gratification on social media, right? I I was just chatting with some of my coworkers the other day about I’ll. I’ll just pick up my phone and go straight to Instagram, but I don’t even think about it. It’s almost like automatic, which is if you think about that, that’s completely unhealthy.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Totally. Yeah, I’m with you.
Steph: Actually thought about you this morning because I turned my alarm off. I was laying in bed and then I was like trying to force myself to get out of bed. But then I picked up my phone again and I was going to hit on social media and I was like, no, I am not. I interrupted it and I put it down.
Nate Klemp, PhD: That’s awesome.
Steph: Before we even had a chance to look at anything. So you were already, you know, making moves in my that’s my rating in my actions. So yeah, it’s working.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Yeah. All right. Nice. I love that.
Ash: Do you always do that? You. Always do write to.
Steph: No, no, never. But for some reason I just didn’t want to get out of bed this morning.
Ash: Social media, when you wake up.
Steph: And I was trying to. Delay the process so that I was just like, you know, looking for something to do. But I.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Don’t know about you guys that the more stressed and tired I feel, the more I want to do that first thing in the morning. Like I I know that I’m having a stressful day and I’m like, oh, ESPN app how I want to see what’s inside of you or like Instagram. What do you have for me today? And I’m like, oh, must be a stressful day.
Speaker: Right. Right.
Steph: Because it’s just mindless. You can just go off in another. World. But so, Nate, I want to. I want to get into the book more, but just to to tell our listeners a little bit about you and I want to hear the background on why you decided to write this book, but you this is your 4th book or your 5th book, you have four books. OK
Steph
Having such available access to screens and shows and games, and I don’t know. I like my kids. I can already see it. Them like being drawn to the phone and all like you go out to dinner and you see everyone on their phones. And at baseball, the kids are sitting on their screens during breaks, and it’s just like it drives me nuts and I don’t know how to stop it. It’s like a vicious.
Ash
Cycle it is. How do you stop that?
Nate Klemp, PhD
Yeah. Well, I think on one level, what makes it so difficult, I’m sure you’ve experienced this is there’s a collective action problem here, which is that. Every other kid. Has a phone. If every other kid is on TikTok and Snapchat and Instagram. Then there’s actually a pretty high social cost that your kid pays to not having a smartphone or not being on those platforms. So as a society, I think. It would be really useful to think. About that collective. Action problem and create incentives that make it a little bit easier on US parents, right? So, they’re now states like Utah that are talking about banning TikTok for kids under 18 and I that’s pretty extreme and there’s a lot of people who think that’s not a good idea. But I actually think that’s a really interesting. The idea because you know when it comes to things like gambling. We say as a society. Hey, this is really addictive. We’re not going to let you do. This till you’re 18. We all know. That the same is pretty much true of something like TikTok or social media, but it’s addictive that it creates anxiety, especially in young girls, that it can lead to eating disorders. Also like so we know it’s bad. We know it’s addictive. Like something like gambling. So why not have those restrictions at a social level? I mean that would be amazing because then it takes the burden off US parents. We’re trying to say, like, no, you shouldn’t be on your phone, but everybody has. A phone dead right? So that at the social level, I think that’s where we have to start. But then the reality is we’re not living in. That world yet? Right. It is still like totally available. A lot of kids have this. And So what I would recommend is having a lot of conversation with your kids about these technologies. So that they’re aware that there are real costs to these technologies and, you know, I think it’s OK as a parent to set some real boundaries and restrictions like phones don’t go in your bedroom, phones stay outside when you’re sleeping. You know, your phones are off at 9:00 PM. For 8:30 PM, you have a certain amount of time each day for certain apps or games. Things like that. So you know I. But I do think it’s a really challenging problem that we’re all trying to. Figure our way out of.
Steph
Yeah, I know. That’s great advice.
Ash
Well, and I noticed too, like we’re diving into a rabbit hole. But like, my kids will be in a. Slightly negative mood to extremely negative mood when they’re on their devices for a while, and I can tell the difference when they haven’t had screen time and they’ve been outside. They are much more pleasant and positive to deal with, which I thought was really interesting and I I kind of I related that to to the social media and. And just screen time in general. Overall, I didn’t do any study on it, but that’s kind of what I’ve seen as as a mom and my kids.
Nate Klemp, PhD
Would be kind of fun not to have them do the three day. Screen binge. That’s way too much. But what could be really fun for your kid to do with your kids is to be like, yeah, you can have an hour to do whatever you want. On your screens. But I want you to pay attention to how you feel right now. And then after that hour is over, we’re going to check in again. And I want you to. Pay attention to how you feel. And I think actually bringing awareness to that difference between their mood or their experience at the beginning and the end is a really powerful practice that we usually don’t do because you’re right, usually like, I’ll speak for myself when I go on Instagram if I stay. There for a while. Almost 100% of the time, I feel worse. When I get off because I’m like ohh these people have so many more followers than me and why don’t people like my stuff? And I thought that post was so clever and only two people commented not, you know, like I go into that whole thing. Which makes me feel worse than going for a walk or something. So bringing awareness and and giving your kids that opportunity to become aware of that could be a. Really powerful tool.
Ash
I love.
Steph
And like that, I’m over here taking notes because I thought. That was great. Conscious screen. I’m going to start doing that myself as well. I mean I.
Ash
Yeah, I love that. Can already. Yeah. Yeah. I feel worse. I feel like, oh, my gosh, I have.
Steph
Totally already. I already know too.
Ash
To do XY and Z and you you just you feel worse about the chore that you have to do, it’s. Like more of a chore. Right after you get off the screen, I feel less like I want to be productive.
Nate Klemp, PhD
Totally. Yeah. And I would say that it’s not our fault that we’re addicted to these things like they have been designed very carefully to exploit a lot of weaknesses of the human brain. So, we talked about novelty that’s often-called variable rewards, right. There’s that piece to it. That, but then there’s also all these other things baked into these apps, like streaks and social reward strategies like likes and thumbs, ups and hearts, and this thing called the endowment effect, which exploits our aversion to risk. Basically, like you spend all this time on Instagram gathering all these followers. And you don’t want to stop because you spend all that. Time gathering all these followers. And so there are all these like. Subtle design elements baked in that are creating this predicament. For all of. Us and I just think that’s important because you know, I can start shaming myself like, why am I doing? This and it’s. Like, well, you know we’re. Up against some of the most sophisticated AI algorithms. In all of history. This is not easy.Ash: Right.
Steph: What would you tell someone who, like this is what they have to do for their job to do like, you know, increase followers? I’m thinking for the podcast even like sometimes I feel like we need to be on there more on TikTok and, you know, promoting it more.
Speaker: Right.
Steph: Than we are, but like some a lot of people’s jobs rely on that and to get in that and I don’t know, like how do, how do you balance that if you do it for a living and then. You know, just having that feeling of being on the screen too much.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Yeah. Well, I am right there with you as a writer. My job is both to write books, but then that’s only half my job. The other half of my job is to promote the heck out of. All those books. And how do? You do that well, you know, social media turns out to be pretty important there. So like you and like, a lot of people. I actually have to be on there for my career. It’s important for me to be on there. So one thing I think that I found to be really useful is I’m boxing. What I mean by that is I try to actually schedule time in my day for distractions. So for me it’s often the lunch hour where I’ll be eating lunch. And I have like 1/2 hour 45 minutes where. I say to myself, this is my time to go. Just, like, totally crazy and gorge on, like digital dopamine hits and I’m going to allow myself to go on Instagram and read all the news sites. And like, you know, do whatever I want. It’s kind of like my little dopamine playground that I have. And that becomes really useful for me because then. Earlier in the day, if I have that urge, I’m like, no, no, no, no. I got my dopamine desert coming up and you just check Instagram now, and obviously there are times where like if I’m posting something in the morning, I have to go.
Ash: Right.
Nate Klemp, PhD: On to post. Because maybe that’s a better time than later. In the day or whatever. But I I think that has been a really powerful hack for me because to just try to never go there creates a lot of restraint and and you know, you can kind of like like indulge more based on that that feeling of being constricted or restrained. But having the small window is really useful for me.
Ash: How? How? You get. Motivated again or re motivated right after that lunch hour to get back into your work? Afternoon. Because that’s what I find. I I will go on there. Whether it’s purposeful or not. And then I’m like, shoot, I don’t, I’m not motivated now all of a sudden because I went on social media.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Yeah, I have that same experience. In fact, I’ll have this experience sometimes where I’ll just almost. Feel a little? Dazed like I’m. I’ve just been. Time traveling through the world and learning about all these wars and. You know, random people’s vacations. Stuff like that. So I I totally feel that I I think like, you know, sometimes just going. For a walk around the block. Getting outside nature is such a great antidote to screenland, as I call it, just taking a few breaths. You know something to get grounded.
Ash: Right. No, that’s it. That’s a really good point. I love stuff. I’m taking your notes after this. I love it. So we’ve really hammered in and like, beat a dead horse on the social media piece. But like, open your book open is so much more than that too. It’s like it’s about meditation and how to do that and and the way you do it. Can you give us, you know, some insight on that, that part? That’s it, that’s a huge part.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Yeah. Well, I think of meditation as happening in two primary ways. One is the way we usually think of it. Which I would call formal meditation where the idea? Just you’re gonna sit in silence, try to seal yourself away from the world and distraction. Maybe you go on a retreat. Something. Like that. And that’s a really powerful practice, something I do every day. I think of it almost like the it’s like the strengthening and conditioning program for our mind that allows us to live more skillfully in the midst of all this distraction. So think of it as like bicep curls for your brain. Right. So there’s that kind of practice for some people, though, that kind of practice doesn’t really land well because they’re like, hey, I got a job, I’ve got kids. I don’t have time to just sit there for an hour a day, staring blankly at my wall. Like, be cool but. That that’s just not in the cards for me. So there’s this. Other form of meditation that I think of as St. opening or street meditation. In the book, for example, I spent a a day at my local Costco. And I decided to turn Costco into my meditation retreat center. So like I just went there for the whole day. I didn’t. I wasn’t there to buy anything. I just would, like, meditate on the outdoor furniture for a little while and then do some walking meditation through, like, produce and meat aisles and then go to the pharmacy, do another like, 20-30 minute meditation. I know it sounds crazy. That’s a really extreme. Example, But this is a practice. What’s so cool about it is we can do it anytime, anywhere. Like you don’t have to reserve a day to go to Costco. If you think about your day, there are all. Of these random throwaway moments. Where you’re waiting at the grocery store, you’re waiting in the hug and go line to pick up your kids. You’re in the Uber. You’re waiting for the elevator, right? Like, they’re all these moments. Where we have time, maybe it’s only two or. To meditate. But what do? We usually do we we grab our phone. And So what if instead of grabbing our phone 100% of the time, we only grabbed our phone 50% of the time and the other 50% of the time we just took the two minutes while we’re sitting in that jam store to like check in with our breath to really, you know, see. Our experience in the present moment with open awareness and I I talk about how to do that in the book, but that I think is maybe like the most powerful practice and the real practice of meditation is bringing it directly into contact with. The chaos of. Of our daily life.
Steph: Wow, I feel like if everyone did that, even 50% of the time, the world would be a much better place.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Yeah. Think about how much less road rage we’d have if people got in.
Steph: He had.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Their car and just. Took like a breath, you know.
Steph: Hey, totally. No, that that was. A good boss by, as we call it, the lots of good boss fights today. Anything else that we haven’t talked about that you want to make sure our listeners hear about your book before we go.
Nate Klemp, PhD: I would just say. You know whether you read the book or not. I would encourage everybody just to play around with this simple distinction between when am I closing down. Turning away from something that’s happening in my mind or my emotions, that’s uncomfortable turning away from other people who I disagree with or who make me feel uncomfortable. So like seeing in just the flow of your everyday life, when that’s happening, becoming aware of. That’s that itself is a powerful practice because without awareness, there’s really nothing we can do. You know, Ashley was talking earlier about, like when it when there’s no thought at all. You just grab your phone and you’re on Instagram and you never even think about it. There’s no freedom there. Right. Like you are just acting on the basis of hardwired habit. And it’s almost like you’re you’re an automaton, or a robot or something, right? So we’re all. We’re all in that boat. We’re all in that camp. We’re all.
Ash: Ohh I’m. Embarrassed, yes.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Doing that constantly. So just having a little bit of space where you can see it happening, that’s the first step and then playing around in whatever whatever way feels comfortable for you. This practice of just turning toward some of the things that might be happening in life that make you feel uncomfortable, actually feeling the discomfort, staying present with it in whatever way that looks like for you. Maybe it’s prayer, maybe it’s meditation, maybe it’s just. Taking a couple of breaths. But but I think the more we can sort of play with that. Both sides of the polarity and and see that distinction happening. The more we can shift out of some of these habits that that really do distract us from what matters most.
Steph: That is great stuff. Thank you Nate so much.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Ash: I can’t wait to finish this book. I’m so excited. Open.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Thank you.
Steph: By Nate Klemp, we will make sure we get the link so everyone can buy this book as soon as it comes out. Well, thank you so much, Nate, for coming on here and and sharing your knowledge and your research on screen time and screen addiction and mindfulness. You’ve been amazing. Thank you for the hats and the books and.
Nate Klemp, PhD: Of course. Well, thank you again for having me.
Steph: Of course. And until next time.
Ash: Live bold and boss up.
The post Live Bold Boss Up: Living Open in a Distracted World with Nate Klemp, PhD appeared first on NextPath Career Partners.